Just to open up some more controversy I decided to start a thread on atheism. Many people accept that nature's foods are the best for our nourishment. They go above and beyond the average person but still seem to be stuck in the religious dogma.

Eventhough these people were brought up to believe that chicken eggs, milk, fish, and all the processed goodies were part a healthy diet they eventually saw through the misinformation and outright lies. I see a parallel here with the silly religious rhetoric that is pushed on us by so many when we are growing up. We are lead to believe that there is a magical invisible being that somehow has powers beyond anything imaginable.

I don't just take everything as truth without some unbiased proof. Just because someone doesn't understand science doesn't make it right to just believe some simple story about a superpowerful being who must be worshipped. I find it surprising to see so many 811 followers who are still so religious.

Why can't we (they) see through the misinformation and lies in other parts of our (their) lives also?

I don't follow any of the current accepted religions as, in my humble opinion, it is a way to make the females of our species fall in line with male dominance!

However, there is something very magical and wonderful about all of nature so I am not discounting anything except male-dominated religions, especially the one that starts out with everyone having a sin because a female got enticed by a snake to eat an apple and therefore poor humanity was thrown out of the best ecological environment there is. But the allegory, knowledge of good and evil might be what causes humankind's problems in that we judge instead of accept, but in any case, why is it the female nature that supposedly does that? Haven't human males pounded their chests for eons about how rational they are (i.e., judgmental) as opposed to the emotional nature of the female?

I am also adamantly opposed to any religion that requires women to have all their childbearing years filled with producing more of the same religion. I also accept the need to keep human numbers to sustainable levels and therefore accept sexual education as well as plenty of birth control measures for both men and woman.

Hi ian,

I am a Christian, but not much of a church-goer. I feel that I see through the misinformation and lies. And, you feel the same way, even though your belief is the polar opposite of mine.

Perhaps it is human nature to think that our own personal belief system is the "truth" and that others are just plain deceived by believing anything different than our own beliefs.

I once heard a 'theory' about the evolution of the male/female counterparts (ie, how entities became male and female by the process of evolution), and it was the most hysterical story I had ever heard. I laughed for 10 minutes because it was such fanciful myth and required much more *faith* from this "scientist" than my God requires of me. And, at that time, I wondered (like you perhaps), "how are people so deceived".

But to answer your question, which is, "how are people, like myself, so deceived, and why can't I see behind the lies of religion":

Generally, I would say I do see behind the lies of religion, and I don't view Christianity as a religion. "Religion" to me, is the tradition, the robes, the gothic buildings, the unquestioned hierarchy of leadership, etc. But, "Christianity", to me, is just a simple belief system, or an "agreement system".

And, I simply don't see the relationship between food and religion. You seemed to imply that if a person begins to see that eating eggs, milk and fish are not healthy, he or she should also see the "truth" that there is no God. Where do you see the parallel?

On another note, I have seen quite a few comments on some 811 / fruit / vegan websites that lead me to believe that most vegans are pagans or new-agers. It seems to me that it is often a belief system, and generally a pagan or new age belief system, that motivates vegans to eat fruit and veggies. For example, on one popular, well-known site, one of the owners expresses her belief in Gaya. This can be frustrating for people like me who simply want to know what is best for their bodies. I don't want to be taught to eat a certain way because it's a "sin against Gaya" to eat any other way.

And then there are some who preach the Vegan lifestyle not from religion, but simply because they don't like to hurt animals. I agree with this emotionally, but I prefer not to use my emotions to reach a conclusion about health. Perhaps somewhere there is a group of people who don't want to hurt animals OR PLANTS, and all they have left for food are the rays of the sun. I doubt that kind of "diet" would last long, but I'm sure there are a few misguided, emotionally convinced individuals who attempt such a "way of eating".

You mention that eggs are bad for us - why? And fish? Really? For everything you can say against fish, there are 10 other people who can derail 811 (including 811's cousins in the raw food movement, vegetarians and the low carb and paleo people). One 90 year old gentlemen, who is in excellent health and sharp as a tack, writes extensively on his website about the dangers of a 100% diet (especially a high fruit diet). He has concluded with his research that a 100% vegetarian diet is great in one generation, but as the individuals give birth to successive generations, and each generation is 100% vegetarian, problems arise.

For me personally, I find that the 811 way of eating feels best for my body - especially in terms of digestion and bowel movements. For 15 years or more I had IBS, and eating Paleo style cured that. But I was constipated all the time. 811 cures the constipation for me. So, I am seeking health - not Gaya, atheism, a god, my own Christian God, or any other entity - for me, this is about food and health and body - not about religion.

I hope that answers your question, or gives you some insight into the inner-workings of the mind of a believer. But you may have been referring to other member's new-age beliefs (in contrast to my christian beliefs), and unfortunately, I can't speak for them.

And now that I have written so much, I'll ask my own question:

Why is it so important to you to convince people not to believe?

_________________
Best Regards,
Brian

Some atheists arent religious about their belief that there is no God, but some definitely are.

They fellowship, form groups, forums, etc. around their own set of atheistic beliefs. A specific fundamental set of beliefs qualifies a religion, and a lot of atheists definitely qualify.

What religion would attract followers if it imposed dogmas? Dogmas come from establishments, religions come from spiritual leaders. No sane person would blindly believe in anything, let alone an establishment.

Brian,
there actually is a religion that goes further: Jainism. Their main principle is non violence:

• Jains go out of their way so as not to hurt even small insects and other tiny animals, because they believe that harm caused by carelessness is as reprehensible as harm caused by deliberate action. Hence they take great pains to make sure that no minuscule animals are injured by the preparation of their meals and in the process of eating and drinking
• Root Vegetables: (potatoes, carrots, turnips) are forbidden because uprooting a plant kills it (non-violence) and because many tiny creatures may inhabit roots.
• Vegetable Greens are considered marginal because plucking them involves pain to the plant.
• Most Jains consider greens acceptable but cabbages and other greens where the whole top is cut and the plant thus killed are forbidden.

I have cut out the round portion of a Savoy cabbage and the plant keeps growing, eventually forming another head. If the head is left the plant forms a flowering seed head for its next generation!

I quite agree with the Jains. Nature has given our souls the possibility to inhabit a body which does not require us to destroy other bodies (whether animal or plant ones) so we might as well enjoy it! Fruitarians ftw! Whee! But I think all religions eventually become too extreme (negative sense here). And while I actually like extremes, religions teach holding on to extremes which contradicts the principles of life. This is the irony of religion: it allows one to reach the wonders of the extreme but it eventually traps the person there.

En la Biblia, según muchos intérpretes (como, por ejemplo, de la Iglesia Adventista del Séptimo Día), especialmente en los libros de Génesis e Isaías, se formula como situación ideal o paradisíaca, tanto para el ser humano como para los demás animales, la alimentación de vegetales y que no implica muerte de ningún animal. No obstante, es claro que en el mundo caído (expulsión de Adán y Eva del Paraíso), la Biblia en muchos textos admite el consumo de alimentos de origen animal, incluyendo la carne.
Dice el libro Génesis en su capítulo primero, versículos 29 y 30, describiendo al paraíso original:
"29 También [Dios] les dijo [a Adán y Eva]: «Yo les doy de la tierra todas las plantas que producen semilla y todos los árboles que dan fruto con semilla;todo esto les servirá de alimento. 30 Y doy la hierba verde como alimento a todas las fieras de la tierra, a todas las aves del cielo y a todos los seres vivientes que se arrastran por la tierra.»"
Nueva Versión Internacional (NVI)
Isaías en su capítulo once, caracterizando el paraíso restaurado del final de los tiempos, manifiesta:
"6 El lobo vivirá con el cordero, el leopardo se echará con el cabrito, y juntos andarán el ternero y el cachorro de león, y un niño pequeño los guiará. 7 La vaca pastará con la osa, sus crías se echarán juntas, y el león comerá paja como el buey. 8 Jugará el niño de pecho junto a la cueva de la cobra, y el recién destetado meterá la mano en el nido de la víbora. 9 No harán ningún daño ni estrago en todo mi monte santo, porque rebosará la tierra con el conocimiento del Señor como rebosa el mar con las aguas."
Nueva Versión Internacional (NVI)
Sobre la base de estas citas del Génesis y de Isaías, algunos religiosos se han hecho veganos o se refieren a su alimentación vegetariana estricta como "la dieta del Génesis" o "la dieta Aleluya", denominación ideada por el pastor George Malkmus, el cual, a raíz de un cáncer y motivado por buscar curas alternativas a la quimioterapia, se inspiró en la alimentación que se seguía en el Jardín del Edén, cuando, según la Biblia, hombres y mujeres llegaban a vivir varios siglos.

I, too, am a Christian, which is a follower of Christ. Many people may call themselves Christian because they go to church. That is not so, just as we do not become a car by sitting in a garage. Christianity is NOT a religion, and I am not religious, but it is a RELATIONSHIP with a living God, the creator of the heaven & earth & everything in it. I did not come to this faith in my own power .. it was a supernatural experience in which He revealed himself to me.

No one is forcing this upon me, or pushing it down my throat. In fact, I wondered why on earth it took 36 years of my life before anyone spoken to me about this. Bottom line is .. we are influenced some how. If not by the body of believers, then something. Like how I was influenced by the mantra of the 60's .. free love, the media, Cosmopolitan, books, astrology, friends, classes, etc. No time was I being influenced by Christians (so it seemed).

Well, in reality, I remember my brother wanting to go to church while we were on vacation. And I blasted him for such an idiotic idea! I chased Christians off & ridiculed them, which now happens to me. I was so blown away how God changed me that I wanted to tell everyone this good news that I had missed out on for so long. But after getting blasted & hated by others so much, I became timid. Sorry .. but it's true.

Let me dispel some myths others believe about Christianity. It is not the "job" or "requirement" of a Christian to convince anyone to believe the Gospel. We are to simply tell others. We all have the FREEDOM to be open or closed to it. 2nd, God does not send anyone to hell, as is the myth of those who do not know Him & His character. We choose! We choose to live with Him, or we choose to reject Him. Those who choose Him live with Him forever, as our spirit man lives forever. Those who reject Him, same thing, they do not HAVE to live with Him after their bodies give out. It is a decision we make for ALL ETERNITY.

Am I concerned for those who do not know what He's really all about, who reject Him based on some bad experiences of people? YES! It haunts me to this day that my dad died without Him. We do not share this to convince others, but because we are so grateful that someone shared with us .. that we were forgiven the debt of our sins. We are all sinners. Some have asked for forgiveness & received the free gift of grace. It costs us nothing! That's the beauty of this God of love .. that's Who He really is. He gives us freedom to choose for ourselves .. He didn't make us robots!

If I truly believe that those who do not receive Christ are choosing to live without Him, on this earth & beyond, then I should be in horror for others! And I am.

Mariano's post translated via http://translate.google.com as per TxVegGirl's request:


While it's probably not a perfect translation, it may help.

_________________
Aloha!

-Janie